If The Holocaust Never Happened....

Soundgarden

Banned
On the eve of World War II, there was an estimated 16 to 18 million Jews Worldwide, 9 million of which lived in Europe. By the end of the war, an estimated 6 million Jews were wiped out(thats the entire Jewish population of Israel).

The Jews that survived emigrated out of Europe, mostly to (form) Israel and to the United States.

Today, the World Jewish Population is estimated at around 13 to 14 million which is unfortunate to the Jewish Community as they reached their peak before the holocaust took place, and were growing consistantly before than. By natural increase, they should be around 20 million, yet assimilation into broader society, small families, and interfaith marriage has slowed it down considerably.

Lets say Hitler never came to power, or at the very least, the nazis never pursued the Holocaust, how many Jews do you think we would have today?

Did the Holocaust make Jews and future generations of such ashamed of their fate that they gradually renounced their fate?

Thoughts?
 

sharlin

Banned
Nazi's not persuing the holocaust = Not nazis. It was going to happen as it was a cornerstone of their whole idea and rationality, if you can call it that.
 

Soundgarden

Banned
sharlin said:
Nazi's not persuing the holocaust = Not nazis. It was going to happen as it was a cornerstone of their whole idea and rationality, if you can call it that.
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Actually, I remember somebody on this forum tossed out an idea of what might happen if the nazis were less racist/anti-semitic. Instead of going down the genocide route, set up an apartied system where Jews were flee the country out of protest/frustration rather than fear.

It should also be noted that only a select few/top ranking nazis were the blood-thristy psychopaths that they are stereotyped to be(Kurt Franz is an extreme example, he killed babies for fun). Many were just "following orders."

If Hitler was more rational/less insane, he could've found some other ways to get rid of the Jews. Cuba, United States, and Canada accepting Jews from the MS St. Louis would be a good start.
 
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zoomar

Soundgarden said:
If Hitler was more rational/less insane, he could've found some other ways to get rid of the Jews. Cuba, United States, and Canada accepting Jews from the MS St. Louis would be a good start.
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Well, "getting rid" of people still sounds a bit like ethnic cleansing even if it primarily via forced emmigration. I presume these kindler/gentler Nazis would still not let these people keep or sell their property at a fair value. Plus, as you indicated, it would take changes in the immigration policies of the democracies to make this work.

But to accept your basic premise of more moderate Nazis and that Europe becomes judenfrei by largely non-murderous means, it then becomes difficult to predict how"WW2" would unfold. Presumably more moderate Nazis would also take a somewhat less genocidal approach to Poles and other Slavs. This would affect the entire Eastern Front -and possibly helping ensure a German victory over Stalin's regime.

Bottom line. "Moderately evil" Nazis would seem no worse than most other European nations who have always persecuted Jews. "Moderately Evil" Germany might stand a better chance of winning WW2 - or at least securing a less draconian surrender if they lose. Assimilated Jews from Germany and western Europe would eventually find homes in Britain, the US, Canada, and elsewhere, where they would face very little discrimination. Many poor and relatively unassimilated Jews from Eastern Europe would probably end up in refugee camps or be unable to leave the Reich's dominion where they wold eventually be kept in concentration camps where they would be worked to death (along with lots of others as well, by the way).

Nazi Germany would be seen as an evil totalitarian regime by the west, but no worse than Stalin's USSR, Mao's China, or Mussolini's Italy. Nazi Germany would not be the ultimate symbol of a Nation gone Wild.

There would probably not be an Israel.
 
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Soundgarden

Banned

I disagree with the bolded, politely. There was talk of a Jewish state forming, way before Hitler came to power, or before he became an anti-semite for that matter.

There were small waves of Jews emigrating to Palestine before World War 2. You can say the Holocaust and the US's sympathy sped up the developement of it, but it was inevitable that it was going to happen sooner or later.
 

Corbell Mark IV



I think there would still be plenty of reason to rightly demonize "Moderately evil" Nazi Germany, in TTL.
 
Beedok

Beedok

Corbell Mark IV said:
I think there would still be plenty of reason to rightly demonize "Moderately evil" Nazi Germany, in TTL.
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There are also plenty of reasons to demonize Stalin's USSR, or Mao's China too.:confused:

I do have to wonder, would the removal of the horror of the Holocaust make the Congo Free State seem relatively worse, or would there be less interest in Genocides by the general public?
 
BELFAST

BELFAST

A lot would depend on who the Jews escaped the Holocaust.
The could have been all deported maybe to Australia, South Africa or else where.
Long term europe does not look like a very safe place for them.
 

zoomar

Soundgarden said:
I disagree with the bolded, politely. There was talk of a Jewish state forming, way before Hitler came to power, or before he became an anti-semite for that matter.

There were small waves of Jews emigrating to Palestine before World War 2. You can say the Holocaust and the US's sympathy sped up the developement of it, but it was inevitable that it was going to happen sooner or later.
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There was talk of a Jewish State, yes. But in reality, Britain was somewhat cool to both Jewish immigration to Palestine and establishment of a Jewish State that could upset its colonial/mandate arrangements. Absent a Holocaust, there would probably be far less Jewish immigration to Israel. Plus, one cannot underestimate the power of the actual and perceived collective guilt the entire western world felt over the Holocaust. This wasn't something that Czarist Russia or Ottomon Turkey did. It was done by a the people who gave us Beethoven and Luther, the British Royal Family, and the largest and most assimilated immigrant group in the USA. The Nazis were aided by just about every European nation under German control and a few neutrals. With a few exceptions (Japan interestinly among them), countries outside of German control largely refused sanctuary. I am an American born in 1949 and I feel guilty. It was this factor that made the establishment of Israel as an explicitly Jewish state inevitable. Absent a Holocaust, I think multi-ethnic and officially secular Palestine might have been possible, with large-scale autonomy given to primarily Jewish areas.
 
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rob in cal

Nazi policy up to the start of World War two was in fact gradual expulsion of the Jews in Nazi held lands. Emigration was proceeding apace, and had the war been delayed a few years, virtually all German and Austrian Jews would have escaped. Of course, Jewish emigration from Poland was much smaller at this time, and so a huge amount of Polish Jews would have been under Nazi domination had a German attack on Poland still proceeded.
Concerning the US, from the years 1938 through 1940, when emigration became harder from Germany, Jews made up the vast percentage of those who came to the US from Germany, and though the immigration quota was only about 28,000 a year, it still represented a big chunk of those Jews still left in Germany/Austria at the time.
 

Sicarius

zoomar said:
With a few exceptions (Japan interestinly among them), countries outside of German control largely refused sanctuary.
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Off the top of the head WI: Germany pursues a longer and larger push for expulsion of the Jews. The US doesn't want them, the Brits won't let them into Palestine, but under an expanded Fugu Plan Japan welcomes them (anxious to get rid of the Jews, Germany doesn't object - quite the contrary), primarily into Manchukuo. (Maybe also get rid of OTL's Simon Kaspé murder). Post-war you end up with a strong Jewish presence in the Soviet-occupied, pro-PLA rogue province.
 
WILDGEESE

WILDGEESE

The state of Israel would have a higher population of around 19 million.

According to the UN there were 22 million Jews on the planet in the year 2000. If those 6 million hadn't died in the Holocaust, it would mean there would be around 35 million due to population growth.

Those extra 6 million souls arriving in Palestine to fight for their nation would mean the state of Israel would be larger in area and have expanded borders further than it do's now.

Possible over running of Lebanon, which they would then allow the Christians to still live, Syria, Jordan and the Sinai peninsular.

All the Arabs in these countries would end up just like the Palestinians, homeless in their own lands.
 
oshron

oshron

not necessarily; there could be fewer Zionists (if nothing else than by proportion), or Israel wouldn't exist at all
 

David S Poepoe

Banned
Probably more people dressing in the costume of the original stormtroopers forces for Halloween. Black uniforms with silver piping still fashionable. The swastika appears in more public places as a holy symbol in the West, tho it is still profusely used as such in the East.
 

JVM

Israel is formed but it becomes a longer and more drawn-out process - and either much more or much less controversial.

The world chooses a different symbol for the ultimate human evil. No idea who.
 
Michel Van

Michel Van

Hitler was not the first who proclaim "Kill all Jews"
but he was the first who came to power to do this madness
and with him, a bunch of maniacs massmurders, eager to fulfill Hitler nightmare

So let Kill Hitler, say in WW1 as grenade impact rip him in pieces, rest in pieces mad Adolph

Germany will turn Fascist either Right wing or communist or become right wing controlled Monarchy.
yes there will be anti-Semitism and progroms against the Jews in Europe in 1930s
But not the Madness the Nazi unleash in Germany and later in entire Europe.
There will be Jews who leave Germany for Other European nation or Palestine under British control

There will be no Israel in this timeline !
Simply because there no need to flee In Panic out Europe into Palestine, like the Jews made massively after WW2.

there will happen a second world war in this timeline.
because the new Germany want former Empire glory back, or Stalin invade Poland to strike at new Germany or connect communist Germany with USSR.
but this war will be complete different from the extermination War Hitler unleash on East Europe,
here the Wehrmacht and SS move from village to Village and killed very one who look like a jews.
If were to many to shoot, there were deported to Death Camps , That was WW2 in east Europe
 

Expat

How much of allied resolve for unconditional surrender was based on the Holocaust and how much of it was based on Germany dragging the world into another round of utter horror within a generation?

That is a terrible question to ask, consider it rhetorical. Point being, there's still potentially plenty of political will to really tear into Germany, whether they're utterly evil or merely evil.

If Poland is still the goal, you still have to at least push the population out of Poland. In the absence of the Holocaust, that probably becomes the greatest tragedy the world has ever seen, and they still set the benchmark for evil. Since TTL is unaware of the Holocaust, it's as bad as a country has ever behaved in the modern era, and thus deserves the full fury of the world brought down upon it.
 
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